Scion comes pre-set with twelve Virtues and four Dark Virtues. The Gods and their allies follow the twelve Virtues, while the Titans and their minions are all aligned with the Dark Virtues. There's a bit of a problem here. That pretty much ignores all the cultural background of the Titans and their minions, replacing it with a generic set of 'evil' traits that in many cases do not fit with the nature of the Titans and Titanspawn.
What, for example, is Prometheus doing with Malice instead of Intellect? It flies directly in the face of his entire story for him to be all about random acts of cruelty instead of having a focus on bringing Fire to mankind. There are lots of Titan-style figures who have nothing to do with the Dark Virtues at all, but for some reason they're all shoehorned as having 100% evilness all the time. That's patently ridiculous!
Then on the other side of the issue, we have Gods who almost certainly do have Dark Virtues. Nergal hasn't got even a little Malice? Odin hasn't got Ambition? Pan with his insatiable sex drive hasn't got even a bit of Rapacity?
That last argument brings me to another issue: Why is Ambition a Dark Virtue? It doesn't feel any darker than Courage or Conviction and it's certainly appropriate to several divine figures. So why does it have to be Evil? What purpose does that serve?
Rapacity is a bit more 'evily', but is it necessarily only Titanic? Up above I noted that Pan is a pretty decent example of Rapacity. So are Centaurs, Satyrs, European Dragons and possibly some of the especially blood-thirsty Aztec Gods like Huitzilopochtli and Tlaloc. I think Rapacity, along with Ambition can safely be un-Dark'd.
Malice makes itself a hard case. Random acts of cruelty sure don't seem like something you'd want to get in a PC. However, I can't honestly say that I'm not certain Nergal, Kali, Sekhmet and some of the others haven't got some Malice lurking in their Virtues.
Actually, the easiest of the Dark Virtues is Zealotry. Zealotry is just a Titan-centric version of Loyalty, it's superfluous. Maybe if you're being generous it's a mixture of Loyalty and Piety, but it's easily represented by either Virtue. It doesn't need to be its own special trait just because it represents devotion to the Titans rather than the Gods. It seems to serve the same purpose as "Morale" did back in Vampire's 2nd Edition: it made the "good guys" distinct from the "bad guys." Well, in Scion, that really isn't a problem. The system doesn't need a Virtue devoted to being "evil."
My initial idea is to declare that there are no such things as "Dark Virtues" and all Virtues are just Virtues. All types of Legendary Creatures have Virtues, but there's no restriction on which ones they can have. They have whatever best suits them on an individual basis. I won't be taking away Pantheon Virtues, but that system does need a little flexibility. I've already addressed that by allowing PC's to vary from the Party Line by up to two Virtues.
Since uniting the Virtues and Dark Virtues removes the "Titan vs God" focus of the system, Zealotry can simply be abandoned. Now anything that had Zealotry just has Piety or Duty or Loyalty directed toward Titanic masters and comrades instead of Godly ones. It's a much simpler way to represent stuff. Malice, Rapacity and Ambition are just folded into the rest of the Virtues.
Maybe soon I'll tackle the Virtues that need some refinement, such as Loyalty, Piety and Harmony. Stay tuned!
I have issues with Virtues, but for the most part my issues do not overlap with yours.
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of problems with Virtues evaporate if you start thinking about them not as "my top four priorities" but as "things imposed on me by my nature, whether I like it or not." It fixes the issue of outliers ("Why doesn't [god] have [virtue]? They totally should!") because it renders Virtues cultural/genetic, at least by default.
I also like the idea that Virtues can be changed over time, and gods and Titans can have Virtues that depart from their depart set. I do this with Titan Avatars as a rule of thumb-- almost nobody has four Dark Virtues; most Titans have three associated with their Titanrealm, plus one from their cultural background, their matching pantheon. (I've got Prometheus down for Intellect instead of Malice already, fyi.)
The Dark Virtues themselves are rather disappointing in a lot of ways, but I think you do them a disservice by interpreting them in the most benign way possible for each word. Ambition shouldn't be "I want to do great things," it should be "I will betray you if it furthers my ends, I will crush you if you stand in the way of my goals, and I will not give a shit about it." I think you do a real unkindness to both Rapacity and to the Aztecs by linking them; Rapacity should be about appetites without purpose (and unless we take for granted that much of their mythology is straight-up lies, those gods need that sacrifice to keep the world from ending.)
I like the general idea of Dark Virtues but wish their effects were a little better-defined, and that there were a few more of them to choose from. They're very useful if you want to do anything with the possibility of allegiance to the Titans or corruption to their cause.
(There comes a point where you can ask: does Odin have big-A Ambition as one of his Virtues, or does he just act with little-a ambition? And if it's the former, what does that imply about him as a character? What changed him, and does he realize? Did he secretly throw in with a Titan, or is he just misled by a twisted prophecy, etc., etc.?)
I also wish the whole Virtues mechanic were a little more interesting in general, and a little less of a pain in the neck. But I'm working on it.
If someone (you?) were to launch a rewrite of the Dark Virtues and make the system more diverse and engaging, I might get behind them again.
DeleteAfter a situation with Malice coming up in my game last night, I've re-evaluated my position on it. Malice is pretty Dark. While some Gods may be guided by it, they tend to be Gods that are feared instead of worshipped and could well be suffering from some Titanic Corruption. So, Malice at least will be remaining Dark.
I still think Zealotry is a stupid Virtue and just exists as "Evil Piety".
Ambition, even with your emphasis, is still something I'm comfortable with as a Virtue. It fits with a good number of concepts and seems just as appropriate to a Scion as something like Conviction or Vengeance.
Rapacity is something I'm still on the fence about. It is pretty nasty, but does it have to be a purposeless appetite? Maybe Dragons have good reasons for hoarding as much Gold as they can. I think I could deal with Rapacity being a regular Virtue.
The whole idea of a Dark Virtue System IS interesting, but it just isn't fully realized in Scion. I'd like to see a more in-depth system that better models Titanic Corruption and provides a difference between Titanspawn and Mythic Creatures (everything else) without just making the Titanspawn mindless smasherbeasts. Some of them at least are not that at all.